Emma: Hey Jessica, so lovely to sit down with you. Can you tell us what made you get into relationship coaching?
Jessica: Hey Emma! I kind of always knew I wanted to work around relationships. In the past I used to work for domestic and sexual abuse charities and really enjoyed it, but I wanted to help people on a more personal level. I was exposed to coaching through working with a charity and I knew I wanted to work with people one-to-one. When COVID hit I had the time to do my qualifications and the first time I coached I was like ‘oh my god, this is it! I really have the potential to change the lives of the people I work with.’ I tend to work with survivors of sexual and domestic abuse, as well as general relationship support. And by relationships I mean all relationships, not just romantic.
Emma: And does this tend to be working with individuals or with couples?
Jessica: I mostly work with individuals. I do some couple work but the thing is you're in a room together and you're worried about hurting each other's feelings. Just come to me separately and when it feels appropriate, we'll do it together.
Emma: Yes I can see how it might be best to tackle issues individually first, especially as many of our relationship problems start with us.
Jessica: People often come to me and want to talk about their romantic relationships, but we end up talking about all relationships such as friendships, siblings, their colleagues, parents… They quickly realise how intertwined it all is and how it often doesn’t really have that much to do with their partner or even the original ‘problem’. I always say to people we can talk about all of these people and relationships, but actually we need to talk about you, and the relationship that you have with yourself first. Which sounds quite cheesy and woo woo but it’s true. I do think it all starts with the self. And when people can have a stronger connection with themselves it just teaches other people how they want to be loved. I think that's at the core of successful relationships.
Emma: I completely agree. I’ve experienced this first-hand where the issues that were present in my relationship were actually personal experiences and traumas that were playing out in my present reality. How do you see our childhoods affecting our relationships?
I always think if you want to understand the why of what you do now, we probably need to look backwards.
Jessica: I think it shows up in the way we communicate, the way that we approach conflict and our attachment styles. All of these things are hugely influenced by our childhoods. But it's not very often that we sit down and consider things like ‘how did my parents' marriage or my grandparents' relationship affect me?’ or ‘how did experience x affect how I trust people?’ And I think we should literally just sit down and answer those questions, and get curious about it. But we often decide the past is in the past. And whilst that is true, the past is a base of learning and reference and it builds a lot of the foundational blocks from where we are now. I think we need to be able to address it. I always think if you want to understand the why of what you do now, we probably need to look backwards.
Emma: Yes definitely. I’ve done so much work addressing my past and it’s really helped me to understand myself and how I show up in all relationships. Is this something you encourage your clients to do?
Jessica: It's so hard because there are certain people who will never address their behaviour and their beliefs. And that's what's quite sad. Even if there are things that they're not vocalising out loud, it will be part of their internal monologue. But if they aren’t consciously aware of it or can't acknowledge it, then they also can't communicate it. And that's it, they probably haven't even acknowledged it themselves. It does feel scary to open up and delve into your past, of course it does.
Emma: It obviously still takes a lot for someone to reach out for help in the first place. What happens if one person wants to work on themselves and the relationship but the other doesn’t?
Jessica: That's one of the hardest things to be honest. I think the majority of clients come across this, whether it’s with a partner, a sibling, friend or parent. But it’s a real insight into couples therapy in general. There always tends to be one person who is driving it and the other person who begrudgingly goes along with it. It’s really important in any relationship that both people are willing to put in an equal amount of effort. If not, there often comes a crisis point when the client feels like they’ve done everything they can. They’ve changed, evolved, have healthy boundaries and then they're coming up against someone who's like, ‘I don't need to change’ and can become quite aggressive or indignant. And it really is that quiet, firm realisation that you cannot control how other people act. It's like that saying ‘you can take a horse to water but you can't make them drink’. And that's when we need to have a conversation with ourselves about what our options are. It sounds hard but I've had clients walk away from their relationships. People think healthy relationships are just coasting along with no issues, but actually healthy relationships also take a lot of hard work. Although I think it’s important that we distinguish between relationships that are hard work and those that are toxic.
Emma: What is the difference? When do you know if it’s toxic or when it’s just hard?
When I say hard work you need to know the difference between hard work that is rewarding and hard work that feels like a huge uphill battle. So the thing I would always say to people is does this feel like productive hard work in your relationship? Do you feel like it's going somewhere? It sounds really unsexy to be like, if you want successful relationships, you have to put in effort and hard work. People often think it should be easy. But you don't coast along at work and expect to become successful, so why is it that we expect that with our relationships as well?
If you want a healthy, thriving relationship, which is going to allow you to have lots of fun, you need to focus on the foundations first. And most people just don't give that stuff the time it deserves. Especially in the world we live in today, it's very much like, let's go on nice holidays and evenings out, and cover up all our issues with our stuff and the things that we do rather than let's do the basics of good communication. And if people got those things right, it could probably save so many longer term issues.
We need to get out of this fairytale mindset of when I meet the right person everything will be so easy and straightforward. As we get older no one is baggage free anymore. You meet people and they've had bad relationships, bad childhoods and maybe they've been divorced. And actually, that comes with a whole load of other things you need to work through as a couple. We need to be more compassionate and understanding.
Emma: I’ve really started to understand this in the past few years. And it all started with me becoming more self-aware of my own baggage first.
Jessica: I think self awareness in a relationship is super important, like asking ourselves where am I actually at? Because I see so often people tend to blame relationship issues on the other person, but we need to take responsibility for our own part too. That’s not always to say we are to blame if we’ve been mistreated, but I would ask my clients ‘what made you not feel good enough to walk away'? We are still responsible in some way.
Emma: Yes I am all for taking responsibility! What do you think makes people stay in relationships longer than they should?
Jessica: So often we have this belief that our romantic partner is going to be the person who fulfils and completes us, but that can put a lot of pressure on the relationship and also make people stay in relationships longer than necessary. At the end of the day, the whole purpose of being human is connection with others, but if someone says ‘this person is my source of happiness, I love them, we do everything together’, this is a huge red flag for me. From my perspective, if you're able to be happy and content on your own, then you’ll notice how much more fulfilling your friendships, or even just speaking with strangers can be, and all these different people are going to fulfil so many more of your needs than just that one person could. It takes off all the pressure you put on that one romantic relationship. No one can fulfil all the needs of one person and no one can be that person's one source of happiness. So of course I think romantic relationships are hugely important, but I think we need to think about how important other relationships are as well.
Emma: Yes I think our culture has put too much emphasis on these romantic relationships that we often neglect all the others, or deem them less important. But for the sake of this interview let’s talk a bit more about romantic relationships and communication. What advice would you give for couples who are struggling with communication?
It's not you versus me. It's us versus whatever the problem is.
Jessica: Such an amazing question. I love this one. It might sound so cheesy, and almost a bit patronising but I literally recommend people sit down in a completely distraction free zone and actually have a conversation where you actively listen. And by that I mean take your phone away, turn off the music, make eye contact and listen to what someone's saying without thinking about what you want to say next. Get curious and ask them questions. Your partner is trying to communicate how they feel, but most of the time we are listening with the intention of responding, thinking how we can defend ourselves rather than trying to understand how the other person is feeling.
Emma: Yes I can relate to this - going into a conversation with an agenda of making my feelings known and defending my position rather than actively listening to what the other person is feeling.
Jessica: Yeah and it’s very much about going into these conversations without a personal agenda. Many of us will go into that conversation thinking that this is going to be tricky and how can I get out of this feeling unhurt and protect myself? Rather than thinking ‘okay, actually it’s the two of us together, how can we get through this conversation together in a more productive, healthy way for our relationship?’ I think that's a big thing with communication. It's not you versus me. It's us versus whatever the problem is.
Emma: That's a really nice way to look at it. And actually, like you said, going in with an agenda of I really want to understand how the other person is feeling not, I really want to make my point known or make sure I win this argument. It's a real understanding of ‘I want to come away and know how you feel’.
Jessica: I think a big thing with communication is being curious. It's really interesting, I read somewhere that you ask your partner the majority of the questions you will ever ask them in the first 25 days of knowing them or something, and then you just don’t really get to know them anymore. You just start to assume. But people are always evolving and we're constantly shedding our skins and becoming new people. So just because you knew them at the beginning of your relationship doesn't mean you still know them, like five years later. And that's what I find so fascinating, when you get married you'll go through like seven or eight different relationships with seven or eight different versions of each other. I think that's so beautiful. You need to believe in yourself and the relationship and trust each other that what's coming next will be different, but also equally as exciting.
Emma: Yeah it’s about giving the other person space to evolve. I think I heard someone say before that you have to choose your partner all over again, like every five years. You're having to recommit and be like, ‘Okay, you're still the person I want to be with.’ So what about advice for people dating at the moment?
Jessica: Learn your non-negotiables in life. There are things we all want from life and a relationship, but then there are the things we really NEED, and these are things we shouldn’t compromise on. I think a big way to tell the difference between the two of them are the things we want tend to be ‘I really want a partner who has a good job and financial security, whereas a non-negotiable should be more value based like someone who is curious about life, or someone who is generous in spirit and will be generous with what they have. This doesn’t mean they have to have a lot of money. What are your values and what are the foundations you’re wanting to build your relationship on? This advice also applies for friends, work, businesses. Once you know your values you can scope them out in all situations and relationships.
Emma: What about self-love for people who are single/dating? I feel like a lot of people are searching for someone to complete them…
Jessica: If you are a wounded person who is then together with another wounded person it's going to be quite messy and heartbreaking. If you have both worked on your healing before a relationship then you’re both able to share things more openly and run less risk of the other activating an old wound. I sometimes struggle with the word self-love because it can seem quite wishy washy, but the thing I say is if self love seems a step too far then let’s go with self-acceptance. It can sometimes feel triggering for someone to tell you to just love a part of yourself that is really wounded or hurt, so let’s get curious with it and see if we can just accept it for now. It doesn’t mean you won’t learn to love it eventually, but let’s learn to just accept it first.
Emma: Yes absolutely, and even taking it one step earlier as self-awareness. I think being single is a great time to practice self-awareness and learn what your triggers are, so if you go into a new relationship you understand how to deal with those triggers.
Jessica: Yes agreed. Another thing I’d like to add is don’t waste your time being single waiting for someone to do things with. I often hear people say things like ‘I’d love to go here with a partner’ and I say do it, go for it! Go alone or go with a friend. If you want to go, go. It will be just as special doing it with someone you love even if it’s not a romantic love. This is what I mean by people putting so much emphasis on a romantic partner and I say do stuff with other special people in your life and you’ll realise just how special they are too. We just build up our romantic partners into this big thing.
Emma: How about self-dating? Even though I have a partner I really want to go on more self dates. I can just about go and sit in cafes and have brunch on my own, but dinner seems a step too far for me still. Any advice or tips for people looking to do that?
Even if you have a partner you should still date yourself and I think people forget that.
Jessica: I love that. What you said there is really important. Even if you have a partner you should still date yourself and I think people forget that. Once people get into relationships they often refer to themselves as ‘we’ but you’re still a ‘you’. If dinner seems like a stretch too far do smaller things first, like take yourself to the cinema or to the theatre. We think other people care so much about us, but when you’re out feeling a bit self conscious you only care about yourself, so why do you think others are feeling any different. Why do you think that other person cares about what you are doing? We need to stop thinking that other people are obsessed or judging us too.
Emma: Yeah many of us forget that we are not actually the centre of the universe.
Jessica: The biggest thing I learnt about dinner dates is bring a book, or sit at the bar if you can and you can either chat to the bartender or people watch.
Emma: Sometimes when you’re out for dinner you just want to sit peacefully and people watch, but sometimes there’s that social pressure to make conversation with the person you’re with. So I guess when you’re on a self date you can allow yourself to just get lost in your thoughts.
Jessica: I remember this time I was sat in Verona and there were two people sitting reading their books together. I didn’t realise at first that they were a couple but every so often they would kiss, or she would put her head on his shoulder. But they were almost having their own separate experiences and I found that so romantic.
Emma: Yeah that’s really lovely. It shows there is that connection there without constantly feeling the need to fill the silence. Okay so we’ve covered people in relationships and those currently dating. What about someone going through a breakup?
Jessica: Write down what you have to offer in a relationship whilst you’re in your heartbreak. So often when we’re in that place we think this heartbreak is a reflection on us, something we’ve done wrong or that we’re not good enough. But refocus on yourself and what special qualities you have to offer someone. What do you love and cherish about yourself? You might even realise these are things that you held back in yourself in your relationship. That’s a very practical exercise to do. People often surprise themselves when they have a page long list of things.
Emma: Yeah I expect many people would go into this exercise thinking oh I’m really going to struggle to think of things and once you get going you’re like ‘Ah look at me! I’m great!’
Lots of people realise when they come out of a relationship that they gave everything to their partner and the relationship but not enough to themselves.
Jessica: Yeah exactly, and that’s it, you’re like I am a catch! Another thing with breakups is that we often think it’s an A to B, but we go through so many different emotions, there’s all this other stuff in the middle and it’s not a straightforward journey. But I would say make this a refocus on you. It’s so easy to focus on the partner, the relationship, the things that went wrong but actually this is your time to be a little bit selfish. What is it that you want? If you want to stay at home and cry even if your friends are trying to get you out, then stay at home and cry. You will know when it’s time to get back out there. It’s time to prioritise your life around you rather than around the relationship. People often forget about themselves in relationships, put their partner first, don’t prioritise themselves and that’s what lots of people realise when they come out of a relationship - that they gave everything to their partner and the relationship but not enough to themselves.
Emma: I think that’s good advice for anyone also in a relationship currently, to realise that now and start prioritising yourself in the relationship so you can avoid going to the part where you’ve completely abandoned yourself. Become aware of that sooner rather than later so you can thrive individually and together.
Jessica: Yeah definitely. I read a great book called Dating in Captivity by Esther Perel and one thing I really took away from it is about embracing the otherness of your partner. The reason you were attracted to your partner in the beginning is because they were someone else with their own life, they were exciting with different perspectives and then all of a sudden we merge into one and you think ‘oh I know them, I don’t need to ask their opinion because I already know.’ There’s almost this lack of respect for them as another person and actually even if it seems basic we should ask them what they think about something. It’s about respecting them as an individual and continuing to get to know them.
Emma: So much incredible advice from this conversation. I know there’s a lot I’ll be taking away from this for my own personal relationships! Can you tell us a bit about how people can work with you if they would like to delve into all of this further?
Jessica: I mostly work with young millennials - men and women, with a fundamental belief that our relationships are at the core of everything that we do and in order to have flourishing relationships with other people we need to work on the relationship we have with ourselves first. I use a mixture of talking therapy and coaching and also some NLP work looking at our internal narratives, as well as our parent/child interactions. Mine is a bit of a tough love approach but it’s very much about the driving factors moving forward, very practical. I focus a lot on where we want to go and how we’re going to get there. There’s lots of spaces available for sitting in the heavy stuff but sometimes I feel like we just need someone to help push us and propel us forward, so that’s very much where I come in. Of course we will look at the past but we don’t sit in it. We use it as a place of reference and learning, not a place of dwelling.
Lots of people will seek support during a time of crisis, like my relationship is falling apart or I’ve just gone through a break up, which is obviously a crucial time to seek support. But I have a few clients that are like everything is fine now, but I’ve noticed some patterns of behaviour that I don’t want to repeat. I want to break out of these cycles and I want to do better next time and those people are the dream because they have self awareness. I think it’s so important to go to therapy and break some of these generational patterns so we don’t pass it down to our children. We are responsible for what comes next. I think it’s slowly changing but most people think of therapy as when something has gone wrong, whereas we want to prevent the things from going wrong.
Emma: Yes I really hope this narrative of therapy is changing and people are using it as more of a preventative tool rather than a reactive one. So what kind of packages do you offer?
Jessica: The way I work is with the belief that it has to work for you. I don’t say you have to work for x amount of time, I just do it session by session. But I do say if you work with someone for less than 4 weeks it’s not going to have much of a benefit. But I’m flexible. I am also working on an online platform around relationships which will have a membership aimed at survivors of abuse and also general relationship support. So I’ll have my one-to-one client work and this platform as well.
Emma: Sounds great! Thank you so much for talking to me today. I feel like we could go on for hours talking about relationships.
Jessica: I’ve loved speaking with you. That’s why I went into it. I think relationships and connection is at the source of everything we do. It’s why we’re here.
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